Call-In Classic Christianity Radio – Bob George P526 (04-03-20)
Listen to how heart-breaking it is when believers are caught up in sin, but even more so when they are not approached in grace, but rather with condemnation. God instructs us to come with an attitude of restoring a brother who is caught up in sin, to come in an attitude of humility and grace. Listen as Bob explains the scriptures in Genesis, of Noah’s drunkenness, and his sons response to that, of Jesus teaching in Matthew, of taking at most two or three witnesses, and that only after the person refused to repent and who remained proud and in rebellion, of Jesus gracious response to the woman caught in adultery, and Paul’s instruction to us in Colossians, and the example of Paul to the brother who boasted of having sex with his father’s wife, how that was necessary to protect the body from infection.
Listen to Bob share with a father whose daughter is a lesbian, who is flaunting that sin, and wanting to bring her lover home with her. Bob shares truth in scripture that that is sin, and to not flaunt that sin in front of me in the home. Yes, you can be glad to have her home, but not flaunting sin, for that is perversion.
Listen as Bob explains the purpose of the Holy Spirit, that the church is those who are born again, not a building on the corner of walk and don’t walk, not an organization but a body, made up of those who are born again, whose head is Christ Jesus. Christ did not come to save the church, but people.
Listen as Bob explains how we do not have prophets today. If we did, what would they say? They would not say anything that is not already written down for us in the scriptures. Bob shares thoughts from Revelation 22:19. The canon of scripture has been closed. Let us keep our focus on Christ, who is the head of the church, and not get off on thinking about what the body is doing but what Christ is doing. God is the one who is to receive all the glory. Keep your focus on the simplicity of the gospel. Keep your eyes on Christ.
Let your mind be renewed with truth. Grow in discernment, in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Do not give glory to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the one who guides us into all truth, who reveals truth to us. Even Jesus did not seek glory for himself, but he sought to bring glory to God the Father.
Many a person have wondered about death, about whether our body should be cremated or not, and what the rapture of the church is about. Listen as Bob shares with a lady concerning these things from a passage in 1 Thessalonians. Bob also shares from scriptures where we are told that flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God, and this body will return to dust. So we, who are in Christ, if we are still on this earth, there will be a day when we will meet the Lord in the air. We will immediately receive our new glorified body. Those who died before us in Christ already have their glorified body and are present with the Lord. We will join up with the saints who have risen before us on that glorious day. We are to encourage one another with these words.
Bambi from Turlock, California
Bambi: At church, one of the elders in the church was caught in adultery. He was carrying on for another year with another woman. I felt he was being lambasted, and thought it was not done in a tactical manner. A letter was sent to the congregation as to why he was being removed from serving as an elder. Then in both services it was mentioned again. I thought it was inappropriate, but a friend said that was a biblical way it was supposed to happen. Is this how this is supposed to be dealt with? Or was this a cruel way of going about this?
Bob: This is totally cruel. If you recall the story of Noah, the sons who loved Noah covered up his sin, and the one son exposed his drunkenness.
20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father’s naked body. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father naked.
1 Peter 4:8
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Bob: If you see a brother trapped in sin, you who are spiritual go to him, but never go to him thinking that you could never do that, or you might find yourself in the same trap.
1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
Bob: Go to him in an attitude of restoration, not condemnation. This is an act of condemnation these elders or pastor did. This is not restoration. This is condemnation. If this guy has a family, you have got this out and put innocent people, his wife and children, and put them in a horrible light.
Bob: A pastor and elders who have done that type of thing are mean as hornets. It sounds like something the Pharisees would pull off.
3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Bambi: That is exactly what I thought. At the time, I did not know it. I recently married. My husband went with me for the first time. This will be the last time since this left a bitter taste in my mouth. This is horrible! This man was sitting in front of us at church, with his wife and adult son. He seemed totally in repentance and his wife seemed to be working this out. The congregation gave him a standing ovation. Of course, there are small children there, and to humiliate his wife and adult son was reprehensible.
Bob: Can you imagine Jesus doing that?
Bambi: No, I cannot. Jesus would not do that. Never.
Bob: You have a passage in Matthew that talks about going to a person and talking to him, and then taking people with you, and if that does not work, take it to the church. (It is strange to me in that the church has not even been formed yet. The church was formed on the day of Pentecost.) That is after you have talked to a person. That would be the case of rebellion.
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Bob: So you are talking about going to a person and then the person is not repenting, and then taking some people with you, and he is still not repenting. In this passage, in Matthew 18, is what is happening here: “If a brother sins against you.” In this case, the brother is not sinning against anybody except his wife and his family. It is not even applicable there. But if it was applicable, if your brother sins against you, go show him his fault just between the two of you.
Bob: Notice that if anyone sees someone trapped in a sin, that this is after the cross. But do not ever go with an attitude that that could never happen to me. God will show you, that, yes, it could happen to you. Do not go in an attitude of condemnation but in restoration. Paul is teaching the same as Jesus’ teaching.
Bob: I have no idea if that ever took place or not, but it does not sound to me that would be the case. If you had a person who was having an affair with somebody, and they were flaunting that, such as in Corinthians, where a man was having sex with his father’s wife, and flaunting that. They were proud of that, saying “Praise God we are under grace.” That was an abuse of grace. “Thank God we are under grace and we are proud of it.” Paul said this person should be removed from fellowship. Why? He was a detriment to the rest of the body. He is flaunting sin.
1 Corinthians 5:1-8
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch – as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Bob: If this guy was having an affair with somebody, I do not think he was flaunting it, if his wife and child were there at church with him. It should be the responsibility of a brother or sister or pastor, if found out about that in some way. You found someone trapped in sin, someone was peeking or somehow was found out. If a person had an attitude saying, “get lost, I can do what I want to. I am under the grace of God.” It says, first of all, if you are showing him his fault, and he is listening to you, you won him over.
If they listen to you, you have won them over.
If he is not listening, and saying, “I am doing what I want to do. I am under the grace of God.”, then it says if that does not work, then take some other people with you. If he does not listen, then take one or two others along, but not more than one or two.
16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[Deuteronomy 19:15]
Bob: Then talk to him again, about his relationship with the Lord, and the fact he is sinning against his wife and family and against the body of Christ. Every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do not go there unless you have actual facts of this thing. I do not know whether that was done. If he refuses to listen to them after all that takes place, then you can take him to the church, the body of Christ, if he refuses to listen to them.
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Bob: Does that mean to get up in the middle of a church service and do that? No. Take it to the elders, the leadership of the church. That does not mean to take it to the whole congregation. That is what you have elders for. If he is still in rebellion, then treat him as you would as a pagan or tax collector. That is exactly what Paul did in Corinthians (1 Corinthians 5:1-8). Take him out of the assembly. Why? If you have an appendix erupting, take it out of the body. Not because you do not like the appendix or God did not give us one, but because it is infected and it will effect the rest of the body.
Bambi: I think they did it this way because he was a leader of the church.
Bob: It makes no difference. I want to tell you something. The pastor is not completely pure either.
Bambi: We felt the same thing.
Bob: They may stand there like they are going to make their ascension to heaven. None of us are going to stand before God sinless. If you are without sin, cast the stone. If not, then shut up. That is why we should go to people with compassion, instead of that kind of exposure, which is humiliating. The wife and son will be living with that the rest of their lives. There is no excuse doing that and calling yourself a Christian. It was cruel. Again, that comes from a hard, legalistic heart that says, “we are going to stop sin.” Well, they better start with themselves.
Bambi: The pastor should look in the mirror first.
Bob: There is not one of us who will stand before God in our own righteousness. Can you imagine a visitor visiting church that day. That would be the last time they would ever go back. Can you imagine those sitting in the congregation. Brother, how can you make the whole congregation a total hypocrite. Brother, there is nobody sitting there sinless. If someone finds out about mine, I will be a Christian liar and deceiver. No openness. Nothing to that except destruction.
Bambi: I felt the same way, Bob.
Bob: That is a shame.
Bambi: It turned my stomach sour. Two weeks from Sunday it was brought to my attention. We are going to look for another church. I was so disgusted how that was handled. My heart broke for the son and the wife who were sitting right in front of us.
Bob: It is embarrassing also for the rest of the congregation. What did Jesus say about this? He said if you looked with a woman with lust in your heart, you already committed adultery. There is not a man sitting in church that has not committed adultery in the eyes of God. Not a one.
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Recall how Jesus approached the woman caught in adultery in John 8:3-11.
Bob: When the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, the Pharisees said she needed to be stoned. He said to them that he who is without sin, then you cast the first stone. But I know you are not, for none of us are.
Bob: It should have been handled in private, with love, with an idea of restoration. Had it been handled that way, it would have produced in this man godly sorrow that would have produced repentance. Human sorrow produces rebellion.
Bambi: That is what I am afraid of. It will have backlashes. I left that church. I will look for greener pastures, for sure.
Bob: That is a hard thing to share. But teaching was shared as a result of that, and maybe people will be led in different direction as a result of your call.
Tyrone from Catinaro, California
Tyrone: What do you think about this? I have a step daughter who is a lesbian and she is coming to visit. She is intending to bring a partner to spend the night in our house. I am opposed to that. She is my only daughter. But I do not like that attitude.
Bob: The daughter is not sowing an attitude by bringing a sinful relationship into a Christian home. It is the flaunting that was talked about in Corinthians. She is saying that lesbianism, and homosexuality, is not a sin. She is saying, “It is my lifestyle.” No, you say that the bible says it is a sin, and you are not going to flaunt your sin in my home.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator – who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
I do not blame your attitude at all. I would not have either. You can say, “If you want to come and visit, I am glad to have you, but you are not going to bring your lesbian lover.”
Lisa from Dayton, Kentucky
Lisa: I was raised Catholic, unfortunately. I am not Catholic any more. I was wondering about the apostle’s churches. Apostasy means to fall away from the true church set up by Jesus and the apostles, as laid out in the New Testament. That, to me includes, all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as in 1 Corinthians 12:6-11, and the Holy Spirit as in 1 John 14, 16 and 17. A lot of churches left it out, even mainstream Methodists and Baptists. They seem to be cut-n-paste pastors, who take out what they want out of the bible, and keep preaching things about atonement as if that gets you to heaven, but nothing about what going to help you in your life.
Bob: Lisa, let me instruct you. I do not think you are right on that. Whenever we think of church, we think of an organization, instead of what it is, and organism. The church is the body of Christ. The church is not a building on the corner of walk and don’t walk. The true church is only made of born again believers. There really is no gathering device for that. You hope when you gather together in Dallas, Texas or Dayton, Kentucky or wherever you might be, you hope your assembly is made up of born again people. But your assembly is not the church. God came to save people, not churches.
4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Lisa: But I am talking about doctrines being left out.
Bob: Again, you have one of that. But again, the purpose of the Holy Spirit is to bring glory to Jesus, not bring glory to the Holy Spirit. So a lot of people try to bring glory to the Holy Spirit instead of to Jesus, which is the very opposite of what Jesus said. That is all biblical interpretation.
1 John 5:6
And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.”
Bob: For example, Jesus did send the Holy Spirit and he is the one working in our lives.
26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Lisa: Exactly, but we have our healers and prophets.
Bob: No, we do not have prophets.
Lisa: The reason they have gone is because of apostasy.
Bob: No, Lisa. That is adding. What you are talking about is apostasy. You do not need prophets when the bible has been completed. What is a prophet going to say to you and me?
19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
Bob: Lisa, the only thing you are interested in is tongues. That is really the only thing you are interested in. That is what you are concerned that people are not involved in. As far as biblical tongues, I have never heard, seen or known of anyone who ever spoke in biblical tongues. That is a language that could be documented. I never known one to do that. (You can read about tongues n early church in Acts 2.)
That is beside the point. A prophet. How would you know a prophet is a prophet in this day and age? A prophet is to give out the word of God until scripture is completed. In scripture, we have everything we need for life and godliness.
2 Peter 1:3
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
Bob: You do not go beyond that. There is nothing a prophet can say to you and me that is outside the word of God that would have any meaning to you and me. A prophet today would be someone prophesying what is in the bible. Going outside the bible is adding to the scripture. The book of Revelation says people like that ought to be accursed (Revelation 22:19). You have to use some discernment there, Lisa, in all those things you are talking about. People get all hung up on sign gifts and they lose sight of Christ Jesus. In the final analysis, the apostasy was getting away from Christ Jesus.
15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ.
Bob: Getting away from Christ is not getting away from gifts, a church organization, but getting away from the simplicity of the gospel that is found in Christ Jesus. That is the apostasy, getting away from Jesus and getting eyes on the gifts and what the body is doing instead of what the head is doing.
2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ.
Bob: I appreciate your call, Lisa.
Joyce from Kingston Springs, Tennessee
Thank you for your ministry on the air, and of two books, Classic Christianity and Growing in Grace. That has helped set me free, from expectations from church and pastors of my life time.
Bob: I am grateful to hear that, Joyce.
Joyce: What do you think about cremation? What will happen to the body when it is cremated, whenever the rapture occurs?
Bob: I could be funny and say that is a hot subject. Again, it does not make any difference. How many people are burned in a building or an airplane crash, or whatever it might be. The body is going back to dust regardless, whether put in a casket or burned up.
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Bob: It makes no ounce of difference. When you die, you are absent from the body and immediately present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Bob: You are present with the Lord, both spiritually and with a glorified body. That is why in Thessalonians, dealing with the end times, it talks about that those who were dead in Christ are the first to rise.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Bob: That does not mean at that moment. That means through the ages, when you are dead, you are the first to rise. Then we who are left behind, and waiting for that rapture, we do not precede those who have gone before us. Why would you say that if that was a split second event? What we have done in the end times, that at the rapture, we are saved and we are with Jesus spiritually, but we need to get our glorified body at the resurrection. I do not think anything would be farther from the truth when we are absent from body and present with the Lord. Right now I have a home to live in, but when I die, I am homeless? But I think we get our glorified body immediately. That is why it says, at that time, that we who are left behind, we will meet them in the air. How did they get there? Because they are already with Jesus. When did we get to be with Jesus? When absent from the body and present with the Lord.
Joyce: So it does not matter the manner of burial you are going to have anyhow because your body is going back to dust anyway? It is not that that is going to be resurrected.
1 Corinthians 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Joyce: I had a different take on it. Some say your fleshly body will be resurrected, and turn it into a glorified body.
Bob: No way. Not one piece of this body will go into the presence of God.
1 Thessalonains 4:13-14
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
Bob: How is he going to bring him with him unless we are with him? We are already there. We are absent from the body and present with the Lord.
1 Thessalonains 4:15
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep (or died).
Bob: They are already there. We are not. If I am here when the rapture occurs, people who died are already in the presence of Jesus, and I am not.
1 Thessalonains 4:16
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Bob: They are the ones already there.
1 Thessalonains 4:17
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Bob: When you have an “after”, you have to have a “before”. If you had a split second event, you would not have a “before” and an “after” on this.
Bob: Who are the “them”? Those who have already died and already in the presence of Christ.
1 Thessalonains 4:17-18
And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Bob: Our glorified body will be in the presence of Christ but not one thing of this body will be wanting but worm food, whether burnt up or in the ocean, eaten by a whale or a shark. How are we going to bring that together? This body is a temporal house. It came from dust and will return to dust. But God will give us a new body. If there is a body in heaven, it is going to be better than what I have.
Joyce: Whenever a person dies, and an angel comes to take his soul, he immediately steps in to a glorified body?
Bob: Absolutely. Why would we need to wait for a glorified body for two or three thousand years when God said he prepares a place for us. What did he go to prepare? A house. No, our body.
Bob: Does that help, Joyce?
Bob: Yes, it does. I think that would comfort my family. I told my family I wanted to be cremated. I think there was misinformation about a glorified body and when we receive it.
Bob: If you have been to a funeral and look at a body, you know a person is not there. That person left that house and that house is going back to the dust.