Call-In Classic Christianity Radio – Bob George P484 (10-18-19)
Bob George received calls for help from people in their every day life struggles. One person, Mary, called for help in regards to a struggle with her husband who is in and out of work. Another lady, Denise, called on behalf of young children, who are caught up in an unhealthy environment where improper sexual relations among adults has occurred, who were apparently flaunting that behavior, or were certainly having no remorse or even recognizing such behavior as sin.
Bob George, during his time on earth, established a counseling ministry, which allowed Bob to offer help to people who call in on his radio program with specific problems to receive help. It is evident to me, as an outward observer, listening to Bob on recorded messages or from the testimonies of others, is the great love Bob showed to hurting people. He made himself available, and even went out of his way to provide help for hurting people. If he cannot discern how best to help, such as due to limited time on a call-in program like this and with insufficient information of their circumstances, he would connect people with other members of the body of Christ so the body is built up and can start functioning properly as God intended.
Another person called to get Bob’s opinion of church discipline. Bob George contrasted the improper discipline, or rather judgmental or condescending attitude of discipline, so prevalent in churches today, to the proper way of disciplining, first on a personal level and then of a public form of discipline that is necessary for obvious sin, where such sin is being flaunted openly. In both cases, love is the motive to restore a person caught up in sin so they can return to the proper functioning in the body of Christ. Attitudes of the heart, with the love and the grace of God, are emphasized with great importance.
The last caller, Warren, was reading a translation where the passage of scripture in 1 Corinthians 15:4, in the New King James Version (NKJV) just did not quite make sense. Bob pointed out that sometimes in translations, where there is something not clear, you go to the Greek. The original manuscripts are written in Greek and are inspired by God but translations are translations of the Greek into a language we can understand. In the process of translation, sometimes a word is added, or even a verse is subtracted. Such translation error can happen for a variety of reasons, such as by persuasion, bias, or ignorance of a translator. Now there are many good translations out there, and not any one of them without its issues, but one has to be aware of these things when studying the word of God. Many times by comparing one translation with another, you can more readily discern God’s intended meaning, which, if you are born again, the Holy Spirit will teach you it’s meaning. Since the majority of translations are quite good, I have rarely had to go look up something in the Greek language for clarification. The one passage that all English translations are poor in is the translation of 1 John 1:9. For that passage, I highly recommend looking up the Greek.
Beth from Albany, NY
Beth: First, I would like to thank you for your comments you made earlier on tithing that answered several questions I had.
Bob: Well, good.
Beth: The last person also had good things for me to hear.
Bob: That is the beauty of this program, you are talking to one person, but many are benefited by hearing the same message. God has privileged the People to People ministries with, for it is a continual ministry, into the lives of people. So I appreciate your encouragement.
Beth: I would like your opinion on church discipline.
Bob: Again, Beth, I think you have people that get into that in a way God never intended to in the first place. Who is going to exercise the discipline? That would be the pastor or elders. The issue is, how are they going to know what somebody is doing and not doing? I have a church and I have no idea what people are doing or not doing unless they are flaunting. That was the case in Corinthians, a man was having intercourse with his Father’s wife, or probably step-mother, hopefully. They were flaunting that.
1 Corinthians 5:1-2
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?
Bob: They were grateful about this grace of God that enables that to take place, but that is taking it to a license to sin. That is what Paul was dealing with there, the misuse and misinterpretation of what grace is. Grace is not God saying, “I saved you and you are all free, and then go and do what you want to do. No, it says do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh but to serve one another in love.”
You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
Bob: A lot of people become Christian busy bodies. There a lot of churches that are busy bodies. That ties into what Paul said to Timothy. Lead a quiet life and mind your own business.
1 Thessalonians 10:10-12
10 And in fact, you do love all of God’s family throughout Macedonia. Yet we urge you, brothers and sisters, to do so more and more, 11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you, 12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
Bob: The issue is if you do have a flaunting of sin in your congregation, then the pastor would be the one who is to be responsible to handle that. Why would he be handling that? For the sake of the body. It is for the strengthening of the body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 5:6-8
6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch – as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Bob: In other words, it is like an appendix. God gave us an appendix and so the issue is when it has erupted. It has gotten infected. Then, what do you do with it? For the sake of the rest of the body, you cut it out. You do not cut it out because you do not like the appendix. You cut it out because it is infected and it is going to infect the rest of the body if you do not remove it. That is exactly what they did in Corinthians. You know that story I am sure. So unless you are dealing with something that is open, obvious and flaunting, then we have no business at all dealing with it.
1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
Bob: As Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery, if we are without sin, then we should cast the first stone. If not, then put our stones down. There are a lot of judgmental people thinking they are God here on earth and try to become nothing but a bunch of self-righteous busy-bodies and try to exercise this extreme, so-called church discipline.
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’”
Bob: Now discipline is something we should be involved in. First of all, only on a one-to-one basis. As it is written in Matthew, if someone sins against you, then you show him his fault just between the two of you. That is hardly ever done, Beth, hardly ever done in church today. We know someone has done something and we put them on the Christian prayer gossip line. Instead of a prayer line, it becomes a gossip line. Let us pray for poor old Jim. He is having difficulties over there. Oh, what kind? Well, let us pray about it. That is busy bodies. It does not say to do that. It says to go to him individually, by yourself and try to straighten that out. Why? For the sake of the body.
Bob: There are people strutting around calling themselves Spirit-filled Christian, but they will not forgive someone and will instead call out someone’s sin publicly to exalt themselves. If you refuse to show forgiveness and mercy to someone, you are displaying the heart of Satan, and not God. Why not instead go to someone who thinks they have sinned in some way and straighten it out and then say to him, “Is there anything I can do to help you?”. In other words, if you are guilty, ask, “Can I help you?” I am here not to judge you, but to restore you. That would be church discipline.
1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves.
Bob: Now, if you have a rebel on your hands and he says he will not listen to you, then you go to other members of the body of Christ and let them try to put some sense into the person. If that does not work, and the sin they are committing is flaunting that to the body, then someone is going to have to say something for the sake of the body. So a pastor says, “I am going to ask you to depart for some period of time until you get this thing straightened out. We love you and we will be there with open arms when you are ready to return, but you need to get with God to get your life straightened out.” That would be church discipline.
Beth: Now if a person is to run into this person, such as out in the community, what is the best approach?
Bob: Are they brothers in Christ? If they are brothers in Christ, you treat them like brothers in Christ. Love covers, Beth. Pride exposes.
20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father’s naked body. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father naked.
24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
“Cursed be Canaan!
The lowest of slaves
will he be to his brothers.”
26 He also said,
“Praise be to the Lord, the God of Shem!
May Canaan be the slave of Shem.
May God extend Japheth’s territory;
may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,
and may Canaan be the slave of Japheth.”
Bob: Remember when Moses got drunk. The one brother covered him. The other brother exposed it. Love covers.
1 Peter 4:8
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Bob: What did Jesus do when he took away the sins of the world from the eyes of God? Did he come and beat people to death and humiliate them on the street? No, that would be cruel. How would you like someone to do that with you, if he knew what was going on underneath the skin? God knew what was going on underneath the skin, just ours. I do not know you, but I know enough about humanity, that if he knows every thought and that would be exposed, would you want to go out on the street with that exposed? No, I would not. If you are without sin, cast the first stone. Otherwise, stop throwing stones at people. If you see a brother sinning, go to him. Never go to him with the attitude that I would never do that because God will show you that you can. Go to a person with restoration not condemnation.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.
1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Mary from Denver, CO
Mary: Thank you for taking my call.
Bob: You are welcome.
Mary: My husband has been out of work. He quit full time employment and is in and out of work for four years now. He started his own company that did not go so well. Now he is doing side work, here and there. Now we have to sell our home. I am dealing with forgiveness issues over this because he took a voluntary layoff and did not have something to go to in its place. I know some of that takes awhile but it has been four years. I cannot seem to get out of the mode of forgiving and getting on with our life. This is how it is going to be. We now have to downsize. It is not about things. We should just be happy. This whole different mindset. He has also had a lot of problems. He has diabetes. I am trying to be very supportive of that, as a caretaker. I am struggling with the verse about the husband providing. I carry a house. I pay all the bills. He will contribute when he has a side job here and there, but it so few and far between.
Bob: So you are the one who is making the money, the sole provider essentially?
Mary: I have the benefits. I am the stable one. You can always rely on me. So I have real forgiveness issues.
Bob: Well. The issue you are dealing with is, of course, your husband is not out there providing. I do not know your circumstances. It sounds like a very complicated circumstance. I do not know your husband. I do not know why he is not out there providing? I do not know why he quit? I do not know if it is because of diabetes. I do not know how much diabetes he has? Is he just on insulin? Is it type II diabetes? So he has been on insulin all of his life?
Bob: So, again, I guess you knew that when you got married?
Bob: It is a tough situation. He should be, if he is able to do it, and if he is physically able. There are a lot of people who work like normal with diabetes. They take their insulin and are okay. Is that his situation?
Mary: Yes, he is able to.
Bob: I have no idea why he went out and took some kind of leave of absent or whatever it was, but I am sure that is what you are angry about, and then he could not get his job back. Again, I do not know all the circumstances. Is he college educated? Could he go and get a job with the same kind of income you had before? Or is he incapable of doing so?
Mary: He is not able to work a non-union company that is a contractor. But he can do anything else under the sun. He is physically and mentally able. It is a problem.
Bob: Why would the union be a problem? I do not understand what the union has to do with that?
Mary: He already lost half his pension for getting out of the union. If you still go and work for a non-union contractor that is competitive, like ABC Electric, and they are non-union, then you would lose the rest of your pension if it would get back to them.
Bob: So he has to get a union job?
Mary: He either has to go back to a union or go to a non-union that is a non-compete company.
Bob: Is he an electrician?
Bob: I do not know Mary. I wish I knew how to talk to you about that. It seems to me there is always some demand for an electrician. It also seems to me that if a person goes out and works at something, even in his own business, and works at it hard enough, and have money behind you to advertise, and let people in the church know you are in business, then there is certainly ways to build business. Besides that I do not see how an electrician would be a tough thing to do.
Mary: If he does not want to be electrician, then go out and do something! You can make $8 an hour. The man I married would work two jobs. The man I married now does not.
Bob: Something is holding him back. In order to handle that properly, he would need to go to see a counselor. We have some people there in Denver that would be more than happy to counsel with him. That is what I would suggest, for there is something holding him back? It is fear. You have obviously expressed to him your frustration. I am sure you have.
Mary: It is hard because we are both believers. Okay. So it should be very clear much better than this.
Bob: Well, again, I wish I was able to be more help to you. It would be necessary to get information to even give wise counsel. I would really suggest that you try to find a counselor. If you have a good church in Denver, have you gone to the people there?
Mary: Not yet.
Bob: Do that, Mary. That is what church is for. A church is not there for well people but sick people.
Mary: I have a marriage group. I have not shared with pastor. But we do have small group we confide in.
Bob: What he needs is to sit down with a man, one on one, with a man, and let him put his hear out, and let some man counsel him in regard to him being a man and taking the responsibility that is necessary to be a bread winner in the home. He needs a man to do that. Again, if you do not feel comfortable going to the church for that, we certainly can help you with somebody in the Denver area.
Mary: That would be great if I had some options.
Bob: What I suggest you do is think and pray about it and call us back. If you want us to get you in contact with people there, then we would be happy to do that for you. Or we can take your name and number now and contact some of our people and have them contact you. We can go either direction. Do you want to do the latter or the former?
Mary: The latter.
Bob: I will put you on hold and get you the information. We will be discrete in calling. We will have the people call who are willing to sit down and talk with you. That is the first direction to go, and after that, if we can be of further help, you let us know.
Bob: Hang on now and we will put you on hold.
Denise from Pittsburgh, PA
Denise: I was calling if Bob George if he has any resource to be utilized to help children. The situation is that adult family members that did something they should not have done. First cousin’s husband and eventually they got together but the children involved they have to spend time with their dad at times. When this was going on, they were married, though divorced now. How can the family handle it? The children look at how adults deal with the situation. They have questions. They really have feelings about how messed up this is. So wondering if resources or something? What would you recommend in terms of handling situations like that?
Bob: Well, Denise, you are talking about a complicated situation. We do not have anything in print to deal with something specific like that. I would get them with someone who can counsel with them to plow through the problems. What you said there is very nebulous. I do not know what the problems are, sexual or not?
Denise: Yes, there was. Eventually, they were messing with each other and then eventually got together. Now they are married. He finally married. But the children have …
Bob: Again, Denise, the children have to spend time with their father. You have not been good at making it clear. Be specific with me. Father is divorced now. Who is the mother and father? Cousins?
Denise: My sister, and then the first cousin and her husband, were messing with each other. My sister and first cousin mother are sisters.
Bob: I am my own grandpa. (Laughter) I cannot figure this out, Denise. I cannot figure all this out, Denise.
Denise: Sister’s children. Your first cousin. The first cousin was messing with my sister’s husband. They were messing with each other. Eventually they tried to make fools of everybody as if nothing was going on. But there is children involved. It has never been really addressed. The father will not even go to counseling because he is trying to convince people it is all right.
Bob: If, whoever the parties are, who are interested in counseling and want to call the ministry to set up an appointment with Heck, which is our counselor, and counsel by phone, so can at least get information as to what is going on. Otherwise, try to get a good Christian counselor in Pittsburgh. Let him meet. If they do not want to counsel, then there is nothing you can do about it.
Denise: What would be the recommendation as far as adult members handle it? These two individuals should not be allowed where there is a family gathering.
Bob: I cannot answer that, Denise. Those are things you have to be led by the Lord. Again, I still do not know the entirety of the situation. It is a long involved situation. You have to get someone down there who can collect all the facts. I have a counselor, Ed Hecht, who would be more than glad to talk with him. You can do that by calling our office and making an appointment and he would be glad to talk with them on the phone. But, again, we are just dealing with all kinds of people. You are dealing with adults, people who are guilty, and it is a very confusing issue right now. Outside of that it is a complicated situation.
Denise: Are you saying if children want to call?
Bob: Sure. Whoever is hurting and wants to get some biblical advice, then they can certainly call and get some biblical advice from the counselors.
Bob: Okay. You need to get an appointment. The man’s name is Ed Hecht. Sorry I could not get more help to you. This is the best way to handle that to me.
Warren from Averill Park, NY
Warren: I have a question with a confusing word in it. It always confused me. In 1 Corinthians 15:4, that he was buried and rose again. The word “again” is confusing to me. I thought he rose once. How can he rise again? That is confusing in there.
Bob: If you look in the Greek text for that, the word “again” is not in the original manuscripts. That is just translated in one of the translations. The New International Version (NIV) reads just like the manuscripts do. The word “again” is not actually in the Greek manuscripts.
1 Corinthians 15:4 (NIV)
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures
Warren: I read that in some other versions. This is in the New King James Version (NKJV).
1 Corinthians 15:4 (NKJV)
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures
Bob: Yes, it is a mistake in the translation because the word “again” is not in the Greek language, in the original manuscripts. It has been added in the translation.
Warren: I thought it had to be semantics.
Bob: There again it is proof of the fact that people worship at the feet of a translation. You cannot worship at the feet of a translation. Translation is translation. You have to go back to the original writings if you have a discrepancy such as this. You have to go back to the Greek and see what the Greek says. In the Greek, there is no word “again”. It was added by the persuasion of a translator or could be by the bias of a translator or by ignorance of the translator. But the issue is the Greek language does not have “again” in there. That is what we have to go by, yes.
Warren: I thought that would be it, that would be involved in somewhere in there. I appreciate that.
Bob: You are sure welcome, my brother. Thank you.
Warren: I listen to you while I do the dishes. It helps passes the time doing the dishes.
Bob: That sounds great. I am sure your wife appreciates that.
Warren: Thanks, Bob.
Bob: Thank you, Warren. God bless you, pal. Bye. Bye.